Former pastor here. I recognize that my experience is not universal, but I'm going to share it anyway. I served in an associate role in a mainline church for two years before leaving for seminary. Four years later, I was sent to pastor a church without a full understanding of the unique challenges that church faced. I was fresh out of seminary and despite my two years I served prior to seminary, I was still about as green as I could possibly be and it showed. My inexperience coupled with the issues that church had resulted in me only being there one year and a significant number of people leaving the church. It was one of the hardest, most soul-crushing years of my life. I was then sent to a church that was much smaller but also much more like the kinds of churches I was used to. I stayed there three years and while I enjoyed my time there and the people, it was a struggle to try to figure out a way to get some momentum going to build the church up. I was then abruptly moved again to another church right as the Covid pandemic was starting up. The year that I was at that church was even more difficult and harsh than my first year was. I was already showing the signs of burnout and it was obvious to everyone that I wasn't a good fit for the church. Finally, I was reassigned one more time, but by that point I wanted nothing more than to be free of pastoring. The following year I exited pastoral ministry for good and have not returned. In the end, I served for six years before leaving and I honestly have no desire to go back.
I think it's hard sometimes for people who either have never been a pastor or had a close friend or family member that is one to understand just what pastors go through. It's easily one of the loneliest and most stressful jobs on Earth. I went in as a naive young brand-new pastor without any real clue about what I was getting into. I came out feeling like I had been put through a mental and spiritual grinder.
congregations can't find pastors, and pastors can't find congregations.
why?
most congregations cannot afford full-time (or even part-time) salaries.
a clergy person who is pastoring a healthy church that can afford a full-time salary is *not* going to leave there (unless they are forced to in the situation you describe).
and as you describe, younger, newer clergy end up in less healthy, less stable congregations with NO mentorship.
and most clergy (and congregations) are older.
this does not add up to much of a future for the mainline.
It is probably too late--short of the direct, dramatic, divine intervention of God. We are in a full post-denominational era now as sociology of religion people have been talking about in large numbers since the 1980s. My own heritage is in an evangelical denomination, so I was saying during the 1980s and 1990s that we were in a denominational transformation era, and there was hope for a shift. But by the early 2000s it was obvious even the evangelical denominations would get swallowed up by the redefinition of Protestantism along the lines of four or five generic non-denominational types. When even denominations like the Mennonite Brethren move to generic names for their congregations, and eliminate their opposition to war from their doctrinal statement, you know that denominations will be gone at some point. Except for their endowments they might be gone sooner. Also, by the 1970s and 1980s the percentage of students in seminaries/divinity schools who felt called to local church ministry began going down and has continued to do so. There are other factors, but that is enough for now.
I also am an evangelical and a retired pastor. I stayed in a small church until I was 80 and honestly ineffective and burned out simply because there was no one to take my place. It is not a mainline problem it is a denominational problem. New and trendy churches are the current fad. It is sad and gives me great concern for the future of Christianity in America
I interviewed at a UCC Church, went through the whole interview process up to where we would have discussed salary and contract. And they backed out stating they wanted more leadership and preaching experience. Regardless of the fact that I have been in ministry for around 15 years, been a solo pastor for a couple years, and done several interims. I'm in my late 30's with a family, but it seemed like that wasn't what they wanted. It's hard to encourage people to go into ministry when churches won't hire them until they have a ridiculous amount of experience.
I did 3 interviews with a UCC church early in my career. At the third interview, I said something like "I have realistic expectations of salary and job prospects, understanding I'm fresh out of seminary and young. As a small, aging church, are your expectations realistic?"
Many churches also overlook the flocks and talent already in their pews; accidentally, structurally, or quietly, through the patterns we’ve come to trust.
We say we want more leaders. Then we build gates they can’t pass (economics plays a large part)
Sometimes, hiring boards aren’t testing for formation- just whether Shibboleth is spelled M.Div.
Here in New Zealand my local Baptist church does not have a pastor but the pulpit is well supplied with elders from the church and the itinerant pastors who pass through. a bit like the early church I suppose. I think some Americans see pastorless churches as football teams without a quarterback. But in our sports of rugby and soccer, there is no special striker/scorer but rather the success of the team depends on teamwork and passing.
As the illusion of separation that spawned ‘denominations’ is exposed for what it is, not reality, perhaps young people are redefining Christianity. Dogma, creeds, fund raising, relevance to cultural norms etc., are dying.
The largest problem mainline churches have in getting clergy is that the process for getting ordained has become torture by committee. It took 2 years to get in front of a Commission on Ministry (COM), once I had the experience and knew what they really wanted, I was more than happy to end my relationship with TEC
Torture by committee. That sure does describe it well. I remember when I was going to seminary and in the ordination process. I worked FT then did schooling in the evening. It was very hard to make those meetings.
I came in with an M.Div. from an ATS accredited seminary from another tradition and had been active in my local parish for about a decade. After two years of waiting, and local discernment they wanted another year of work on my part before committing to what additional formation would be required before ordination.
This was all with the expectation that I would be bi vocational, and would be serving one or more parishes on an entirely volunteer basis. I was happy to donate the time, to someone who would value it.
Michael, I’m sorry to hear of your experience — and sorry that it is parallel to my own. I am one of those people.e in their third acts, that Loren referred to in this piece. I’m excited by the call and thrilled that my parish and diocese have affirmed that, and I’m excited to be entering seminary full time this fall. BUT. All of that took THREE YEARS to accomplish. And of course I still have three years of seminary in front of me. Plus six months as a transitional deacon, before I am (God willing) finally ordained priest. About four years from now. When I will turn 71. I understand and respect taking a careful and unhurried approach to discerning ministry. But, there is excess here that is a stumbling block for folks who thirty and for folks in their sixties, and everyone in between. If any other sector that was desperately in need of employees moved as slowly as TEC (and, I gather, other mainline churches) to fill its staffing ranks, that sector would collapse. So no one wonder that is exactly what is happening in our own.
I think the relevance of organized religion in general is declining rapidly. Why? Perhaps it's just more work to be a Christian than the rewards of such a life for especially younger people. Social connection has always been a major factor in church membership. In person social efforts demand much more time and emotional effort than on-line “friends.” The money demands of active church participation is also a roadblock for people when necessities increase in cost to a breaking point. You would know more of the current theological issues present. My sincere thinking indicates a lot of structural concerns that churches don't seem to have answers for.
Creed, clarifying our faith, like, “Jesus is Lord”, God is love, I am good with. That is not what they became historically I do not believe. I will take a social club organized around Jesus, love of neighbor and enemy.
Perhaps more of us are getting closer to the truth. That a beief in the God of Abraham is just a story which people made up to explain the world. And all of its mysteries. Just like all the other Gods.
Here in New Zealand my local Baptist church does not have a pastor but the pulpit is well supplied with elders from the church and the itinerant pastors who pass through. a bit like the early church I suppose. I think some Americans see pastorless churches as football teams without a quarterback. But in our sports of rugby and soccer, there is no special striker/scorer but rather the success of the team depends on teamwork and passing.
Churches that cannot pay pastors as much as communities pay teachers will only be able to have lay preachers or part-time retired clergy. Bringing in clergy of other denominations doesn’t usually work well. Cultural, linguistic, and theological differences work against success. Frank conversations about this are badly needed with lay leaders to encourage them to plan for the inevitable.
Former pastor here. I recognize that my experience is not universal, but I'm going to share it anyway. I served in an associate role in a mainline church for two years before leaving for seminary. Four years later, I was sent to pastor a church without a full understanding of the unique challenges that church faced. I was fresh out of seminary and despite my two years I served prior to seminary, I was still about as green as I could possibly be and it showed. My inexperience coupled with the issues that church had resulted in me only being there one year and a significant number of people leaving the church. It was one of the hardest, most soul-crushing years of my life. I was then sent to a church that was much smaller but also much more like the kinds of churches I was used to. I stayed there three years and while I enjoyed my time there and the people, it was a struggle to try to figure out a way to get some momentum going to build the church up. I was then abruptly moved again to another church right as the Covid pandemic was starting up. The year that I was at that church was even more difficult and harsh than my first year was. I was already showing the signs of burnout and it was obvious to everyone that I wasn't a good fit for the church. Finally, I was reassigned one more time, but by that point I wanted nothing more than to be free of pastoring. The following year I exited pastoral ministry for good and have not returned. In the end, I served for six years before leaving and I honestly have no desire to go back.
I think it's hard sometimes for people who either have never been a pastor or had a close friend or family member that is one to understand just what pastors go through. It's easily one of the loneliest and most stressful jobs on Earth. I went in as a naive young brand-new pastor without any real clue about what I was getting into. I came out feeling like I had been put through a mental and spiritual grinder.
Absolutely. Thanks for sharing. A story that resonates with many, I’m sure.
I know of highly qualified and excellent pastors who have not been hired or have been fired for dumb reasons. I suspect cranky old folks in the pews.
congregations can't find pastors, and pastors can't find congregations.
why?
most congregations cannot afford full-time (or even part-time) salaries.
a clergy person who is pastoring a healthy church that can afford a full-time salary is *not* going to leave there (unless they are forced to in the situation you describe).
and as you describe, younger, newer clergy end up in less healthy, less stable congregations with NO mentorship.
and most clergy (and congregations) are older.
this does not add up to much of a future for the mainline.
It is probably too late--short of the direct, dramatic, divine intervention of God. We are in a full post-denominational era now as sociology of religion people have been talking about in large numbers since the 1980s. My own heritage is in an evangelical denomination, so I was saying during the 1980s and 1990s that we were in a denominational transformation era, and there was hope for a shift. But by the early 2000s it was obvious even the evangelical denominations would get swallowed up by the redefinition of Protestantism along the lines of four or five generic non-denominational types. When even denominations like the Mennonite Brethren move to generic names for their congregations, and eliminate their opposition to war from their doctrinal statement, you know that denominations will be gone at some point. Except for their endowments they might be gone sooner. Also, by the 1970s and 1980s the percentage of students in seminaries/divinity schools who felt called to local church ministry began going down and has continued to do so. There are other factors, but that is enough for now.
I also am an evangelical and a retired pastor. I stayed in a small church until I was 80 and honestly ineffective and burned out simply because there was no one to take my place. It is not a mainline problem it is a denominational problem. New and trendy churches are the current fad. It is sad and gives me great concern for the future of Christianity in America
I interviewed at a UCC Church, went through the whole interview process up to where we would have discussed salary and contract. And they backed out stating they wanted more leadership and preaching experience. Regardless of the fact that I have been in ministry for around 15 years, been a solo pastor for a couple years, and done several interims. I'm in my late 30's with a family, but it seemed like that wasn't what they wanted. It's hard to encourage people to go into ministry when churches won't hire them until they have a ridiculous amount of experience.
I did 3 interviews with a UCC church early in my career. At the third interview, I said something like "I have realistic expectations of salary and job prospects, understanding I'm fresh out of seminary and young. As a small, aging church, are your expectations realistic?"
In my experience, too many churches expectations are not realistic. Both on the type and education of pastor they would get, as well as salary.
Many churches also overlook the flocks and talent already in their pews; accidentally, structurally, or quietly, through the patterns we’ve come to trust.
We say we want more leaders. Then we build gates they can’t pass (economics plays a large part)
Sometimes, hiring boards aren’t testing for formation- just whether Shibboleth is spelled M.Div.
"just whether Shibboleth is spelled M.Div." Oh man, that hits!
some of us would see this as progress…
…though not necessarily for the same reasons.
Here in New Zealand my local Baptist church does not have a pastor but the pulpit is well supplied with elders from the church and the itinerant pastors who pass through. a bit like the early church I suppose. I think some Americans see pastorless churches as football teams without a quarterback. But in our sports of rugby and soccer, there is no special striker/scorer but rather the success of the team depends on teamwork and passing.
As the illusion of separation that spawned ‘denominations’ is exposed for what it is, not reality, perhaps young people are redefining Christianity. Dogma, creeds, fund raising, relevance to cultural norms etc., are dying.
A church without a creed is a social club, not a church. That is arguably part of the problem here.
The largest problem mainline churches have in getting clergy is that the process for getting ordained has become torture by committee. It took 2 years to get in front of a Commission on Ministry (COM), once I had the experience and knew what they really wanted, I was more than happy to end my relationship with TEC
Torture by committee. That sure does describe it well. I remember when I was going to seminary and in the ordination process. I worked FT then did schooling in the evening. It was very hard to make those meetings.
I came in with an M.Div. from an ATS accredited seminary from another tradition and had been active in my local parish for about a decade. After two years of waiting, and local discernment they wanted another year of work on my part before committing to what additional formation would be required before ordination.
This was all with the expectation that I would be bi vocational, and would be serving one or more parishes on an entirely volunteer basis. I was happy to donate the time, to someone who would value it.
Michael, I’m sorry to hear of your experience — and sorry that it is parallel to my own. I am one of those people.e in their third acts, that Loren referred to in this piece. I’m excited by the call and thrilled that my parish and diocese have affirmed that, and I’m excited to be entering seminary full time this fall. BUT. All of that took THREE YEARS to accomplish. And of course I still have three years of seminary in front of me. Plus six months as a transitional deacon, before I am (God willing) finally ordained priest. About four years from now. When I will turn 71. I understand and respect taking a careful and unhurried approach to discerning ministry. But, there is excess here that is a stumbling block for folks who thirty and for folks in their sixties, and everyone in between. If any other sector that was desperately in need of employees moved as slowly as TEC (and, I gather, other mainline churches) to fill its staffing ranks, that sector would collapse. So no one wonder that is exactly what is happening in our own.
Perhaps there is a deeper underlying message here that needs serious examination.
Say more...
I think the relevance of organized religion in general is declining rapidly. Why? Perhaps it's just more work to be a Christian than the rewards of such a life for especially younger people. Social connection has always been a major factor in church membership. In person social efforts demand much more time and emotional effort than on-line “friends.” The money demands of active church participation is also a roadblock for people when necessities increase in cost to a breaking point. You would know more of the current theological issues present. My sincere thinking indicates a lot of structural concerns that churches don't seem to have answers for.
Creed, clarifying our faith, like, “Jesus is Lord”, God is love, I am good with. That is not what they became historically I do not believe. I will take a social club organized around Jesus, love of neighbor and enemy.
Perhaps more of us are getting closer to the truth. That a beief in the God of Abraham is just a story which people made up to explain the world. And all of its mysteries. Just like all the other Gods.
Here in New Zealand my local Baptist church does not have a pastor but the pulpit is well supplied with elders from the church and the itinerant pastors who pass through. a bit like the early church I suppose. I think some Americans see pastorless churches as football teams without a quarterback. But in our sports of rugby and soccer, there is no special striker/scorer but rather the success of the team depends on teamwork and passing.
Churches that cannot pay pastors as much as communities pay teachers will only be able to have lay preachers or part-time retired clergy. Bringing in clergy of other denominations doesn’t usually work well. Cultural, linguistic, and theological differences work against success. Frank conversations about this are badly needed with lay leaders to encourage them to plan for the inevitable.
I think it can. The congregation upholds the tradition.